Khush: 0:00

Welcome to the QFC crisis, we challenge ourselves to explore the world of business tech, investing in science, get curious and be part of the journey as we discussed, challenge and learn. Alright, today we're talking all things crypto, we're going to do a bit of a beginner's guide or a one on one, but also probe a little bit deeper into some of the technology that's behind it. And some of the principles that underpin crypto, we're going to be primarily interviewing Luke. So as you would have heard in episode two, his investment portfolio is on almost 100% crypto. And he's done a lot of reading and background research stemming from interest that came from his his computer science degree. So very keen to pick Luke's brain and all things crypto. Lucky. What's well, how are you?

Luke: 0:45

I'm very well, Thanks, mate. I'm good. I'm actually I think it'll be a very good episode. So I'm looking forward to it. I'm

Khush: 0:51

keen. I'm keen. So to get started, what is keeping you curious at the moment?

Luke: 0:58

At the moment, I'm relearning some maths that I have forgotten how to do. So I'm going back through and learning a bunch of things that I vaguely remember how, but I just want it to be more fresh of mine. So I'm going back through some of my mathematics from uni and from from school. So yeah, that's, that's what I'm doing at the moment. What about, what about you? What's keeping you curious?

Khush: 1:20

I'm actually pretty curious about the market looking to get back in at the moment. So in October 2023, you know, some commodity prices are down. And it's sort of around the thesis of green metals, and what opportunities are there? And I'm sort of wondering, you know, that whole contrarian investor sort of piece like, am I wrong? Is the markets wrong? A couple of companies I'm looking at are on the most shorted list, but the weekly as x most shorted stocks. So, you know, I've got a long term, very long term mindset. And I don't have to answer to anyone at the moment. So yeah, it's all about getting it right for myself. But yeah, it's always interesting.

Luke: 1:58

I like that. That's I'm a math to discuss that in the future. That's interesting. I like that you're looking at the the well, I don't know whether you're looking at the list of the most shorted. But it's an interesting place to look. Now

Khush: 2:11

that I actually found a company built my thesis up on it, and then I found out it was, at least for the last two weeks, so

Luke: 2:18

Well, enough. I mean, I know for a fact that Megaport was on the list of most shorted earlier this year, and then it went up by 30%. So, you know, there

Khush: 2:27

you go. See, I think I think shorting is it's in the name, I think it's very short sighted where I'm looking, you know, 510 decades into the future, then. Yeah. Anyway, quickly, why are you learning this math?

Luke: 2:42

Just out of interest?

Khush: 2:44

Yeah, right. I love that. Well, mate. Without further ado, really nice and simple. What is what is blockchain? What is the blockchain? How does it work? Yeah,

Luke: 2:55

so fundamentally, it's actually a data structure. And it's, it's no no different to other data structures. So a good example is a queue. So everyone knows that when you go in line up for something, if you're at the back of the queue, it'll take you longer. And if you're at the front of the queue, it won't take you as long. So in computer science, we call a queue first in first out. So that's just a basic data structure. And blockchain is similar to that. And if you know anything about computer science, you also might know of something called a linked list, it's quite similar, where you have you have blocks of data, right in a blockchain, and each block of data is linked to the next block. And so what that means is when any of the data in any of the blocks has changed, every block in front of it, and the chain is now changed as well, because all of the links will change, which means that those being comprised that part of the data, they change. So essentially, it's like a flow on effect or a Domino's, where if you knock one domino over and huge line, and it knocks one direction, or the ones in front of it will knock over, but not the ones behind it. So you know where it went wrong. And so this property is something comes from hashing where you you hash the data of the block. But yeah, essentially, it's, it's like a list and they linked together and they're linking by a property that means that if something has changed, you know where it was changed from. So

Khush: 4:22

just building on that, then when you add another block to the chain essentially, isn't is every single one sort of verifying that all the ones up until that point are okay and correct. And then it stops when it's broken down. Or it's because there's there's a record of each book being added then you can find to see which one is the troublesome one if there is,

Luke: 4:45

yeah, so it's like if you add a new one it has part of its property is that it has like, almost like a identification or something of everything before it, but that's only when you have a new one. So then you add a new one again, and that in cludes the previous one. Yeah. Okay, so and so when something changes, you know that all of your values will change. And you know, what was which block of data was changed? Essentially, you can trace it back. Right.

Khush: 5:14

Right. So it's got a good link. It's a it's a good, like, record keeping essentially. Yeah.

Luke: 5:18

Yeah. Like another analogy for it would be like, if you had lots of little waterfalls or something, you know, like in like gardens where they have like tiny little ones that flow on multiple times. And if you were to block one of them, you block the water flow. And you can clearly see that the water flow stops all the way up until the one that it's blocked up. Yep. It could be something similar like that. Yeah. Cool.

Khush: 5:39

Cool. Cool. Cool. Awesome. Well, just following on from that, then, so why are blockchain so important in where does decentralization fit into the whole thing?

Luke: 5:51

Yeah. So decentralization is simply you've gotten something and made it a distributed system. So it's not in one place. It's not controlled by one single entity. So that's the main concept there. So if you look at Google Drive, for example, that centralized they have all the power, they control all of your information there. Now, the reason that the the idea fits so well with Blockchain is that you, you can have a distributed system where everyone votes on like the next block, right? You're deciding what data gets added to it. So if you make that so that it's public, and it's decentralized, now, it's no single entity can can change it without everyone knowing. And then you can only add new stuff to it without everyone agreeing. So you basically have like, a very, very good way of, you know, democracy in terms of data storage.

Khush: 6:48

Yeah. So it's very accountable. Yes, exactly. Yeah, cool. So decentralized. You think like, you know, if I'm just thinking conceptually, it doesn't look very visible. It's like all over the place. But really speaking, because of the blockchain and how it's recorded, and the fact that it's like very, you know, there's everyone sort of needs to check up on it before it goes on then. Yeah, sounds pretty secure. All right. Well, then the other very, very fundamental question. What is cryptocurrency? And How's it different to the Aussie dollar? Yeah,

Luke: 7:19

so I think that the word cryptocurrency is actually a little bit misleading, because there are actually plenty of projects with no intention of being a currency at all. And so I can think of lots of different examples there. But one might be something like an Oracle, where its purpose is to get real world values, like the weather and add that to a blockchain. So that has it's not intention. It's not trying to replace currency, it's not trying to do anything similar to that. But that's, you know, that's one example where it technically fits into that criteria. But then there are other things where they might be trying to be a stable currency by all kinds of different mechanisms. And so they are trying to be something similar to the Australian dollar. So I think that it's a difficult question to answer because there's so many types, and they're trying to do different things.

Khush: 8:11

Right. Okay. So where does crypto come from? Is it cryptographic? Is that where you originally? Yeah, Okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Well, then how is one created? So Stinney? Specifically, like a crypto currency? So for example, Bitcoin, which was supposed to be currency, how has how they're created? And how, how do they exist? Yeah.

Luke: 8:32

So essentially, you have this distributed system, and then you're going to have some form of exchange on it. And so you have this asset class that you create, and it gets minted. And in this case, it gets minted by mining. And so mining is, is something that we'll get into a little bit later. But it's the use of the chain is the use of the system, which will provide new assets in new minting of assets to the system.

Khush: 9:02

Yeah, okay. Well, we might get that get into that a little bit later, I'll pick your brain a little bit about between proof of work and proof of stake, which I know, you definitely know, that all started with the most basic den. Can you give a like a short summary on Bitcoin and its role in the world? The first?

Luke: 9:21

Yes, I like to think of it as is like an iteration one. So essentially, it's an it's like an experiment of a distributed public ledger. So it was created and, you know, seemed to work successfully as it's been built upon. And lots of new ideas have stemmed from it technological wise. But essentially, it was the original idea of what if we got, you know, this, this idea of cryptography, this idea of decentralization, we put it in into a data structure and we push it out, like what would happen and it's essentially the result of that.

Khush: 9:55

Yeah, cool. And I know you've talked about this, you know, even in episode two We talked about the white paper, but we'll get to them later. So then people can really see the the thinking and the fundamentals and the first principles behind it. Other than Bitcoin, what other notable cryptocurrencies are out there and how they're different?

Luke: 10:13

Yeah. So I think one really good example is a theorem, which is a very large project. And its aim was they, they saw what Bitcoin was doing. And they, they thought that was a great idea. What if we added additional executable code to that and something called smart contracts. And that's, it's doing some things similar, and then some additional things. But it's evolved a lot since it was initially created because of like an improvement program. They've changed a lot since since inception. And another good example would be chain link, which is an article which I alluded to before, which is essentially trying to get real world information, and then verify that with, you know, different algorithms to figure out authenticity, and then add that as information that can then be used for calculations or, you know, whatever it needs to be. Oh,

Khush: 11:04

nice. Thank you. So we'll move on to smart contracts. Now, can you tell me what what are smart contracts? And how do they automate the processes in the blockchain? And can you give me some examples of some real world applications of smart contracts?

Luke: 11:18

One good example is, if you're looking at it from a use case perspective, what can you actually do with this data structure? Well, I could send you something and we can verify and have everyone accepts that I've sent you something. And it's provable. And then you could send something back. And we can prove that right? That's really simple. But what if we wanted to do something more complicated? Like what if I wanted to borrow money off you, or I wanted to lend you some money or something? Now, your data structure can't, you know, it can't handle these new things, these new ideas. And so essentially, a smart contract is autonomous code. So I can then lend you money. It'll execute autonomous code. And you can then you have these automatic verifications of how much I've given deposited to the contract, and how much you're you know, maybe you're giving up some collateral or whatever it is. And so then you can have these autonomous examples of code running that can do things like a borrow lend protocol.

Khush: 12:17

super interesting. Okay. Sounds like smart contracts, they're, you know, they're doing a bit behind the scenes. And because they're built as well, on the on the blockchain, it's a very easily verifiable way to make things make sure things are executed and executed. Right. Yeah, we talked about it briefly before. So I'm going to pick your brain on consensus. Well, so proof of work versus proof of stake. They're sort of named consensus mechanisms. But that sounds very complex. But um, what is the difference and why they're important? Yeah,

Luke: 12:46

so we can break this down by simply saying, you know, what is consensus? It's, it's everyone agreeing on something, right. That's what that means or what the word means. So there's actually a bunch of different consensus mechanisms. Now, it will mainly talk about proof of work and proof of stake. But there's also ones like proof of history, proof of space, or proof of storage, whatever you want to call it, there's actually heaps of them. Essentially, what you're trying to do is prove that you are a legitimate actor. So when you have a distributed system, let's say that you have 100 people or participating in something, each person needs to prove that they are legitimate. Because if you have 20, people who are just trying to rob the system, for example, you need to be able to weed those people out and not let them participate, right. You don't want people voting who are bad actors, essentially. So one way and the initial way that was thought of was proof of work. And that that was the original inception of Bitcoin. That's what it used. And essentially, what you're doing is you're using energy and computation to prove that you're a legitimate actor. And so you're guessing those hashes that I was talking about, with the block, when I was talking about the data structure, so you're guessing, you're essentially guessing these things that are really, really hard to guess, which is this hash, which is like this, this string of it's almost like a string of numbers and digits, like a password or something. Yeah, and when you do get it correctly, then it'll mint another block autonomously. And what you're doing is, essentially, it makes no sense for you to spend time, money, effort, computation, all of this on something unless you get something out of it, right. And so it's it's like a mitigation of you being a bad actor. It disincentivizes you to cheat the system. And so proof of stake is similar but different in that it doesn't waste a bunch of electricity the same way. But you provide a stake of an asset. So like, in this case, let's say Aetherium, I bought Aetherium up for steak, and then I help with the consensus and if I am consistently wrong, for example, I would lose my steak.

Khush: 14:49

Right when you say you're consistently wrong, what you mean.

Luke: 14:52

So if I say that you're paying me $5 And everyone else thinks that you're paying me $10 I might be Trying to cheat you out of $5? Yeah, they would say, Well, look, you're gonna have to give up the $100 that you put up at stake, because you're no longer legitimate. Yeah,

Khush: 15:09

okay. Okay. Very interesting. So proof of stake is, in both ways, you're sort of using something like work or putting up someone's funds as like a validity checking method, I suppose, like you making sure that people are held to account. Yeah, fair enough. So just moving a little bit to the side. Like so. Crypto wallets. So you obviously, you know, if you're imagining them as a currency or if it is a cryptocurrency, you're storing it. And they call them wallets even though they're not physical. So what what type of wallets are available? And yeah, how do they work?

Luke: 15:46

Yeah, so there's a bunch of different types. I mean, the, the fundamental thing to understand is that they're there to store. And that's, that's their main purpose. And then some of them have additional purposes, like you can buy and sell or you can swap between different assets or whatever. But essentially, it's the hold them right. And then that means that they can integrate via code into different things. So you can use them for for things. So you have hot wallets and cold wallets. Cold wallets are a type of cold storage is what we call it. So it's almost like a USB. And it can essentially hold your asset and it'll it knows what you have. And then you can unplug it, and it can sit on your shelf, like a hot wallet is like a software Wallet. So you might have like a web based one. So it's like a like an extension on your browser. Or you might have an app or you might have software that runs on your computer. Yeah. But they're like the different types. But yeah, I mean, fundamentally, they're all storing things. There's risk and rewards, which isn't really, you know, within the scope of this podcast, but yeah,

Khush: 16:45

so yeah, I suppose for the for the average person, it's not dead. It's just got a little bit of crypto, you know, even some of the exchanges that you can buy them on hold, hold them for you, as long as you got the security mechanisms and your two factor authentication and stuff like that. It's usually okay.

Luke: 17:00

Yeah, so that's, you're still so holding it on exchange kind of counts as still holding it in a wallet, I guess, because in the circumstances, they have a wallet for you that it gets put in. Now, I mean, to answer your question that comes down to your risk tolerance in terms of decentralization, because a lot of the industry is not fully regulated. There's people have that fear factor for what happens if it all gets, you know, claimed by the government or something, hypothetically? Is that likely? I don't know. That's really up to you to decide? I don't think it is. So you probably can't just hold it on an exchange. Yeah. But there's are the implications to that? Yeah.

Khush: 17:38

Now, Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, that was a good segue into my next couple of questions. So what's the role of cryptocurrency exchanges? I suppose again, if you're thinking about like a currency, you know, you've got Forex exchanges, or foreign foreign exchanges for fiat currencies and stuff like that. Do they work in the same way? What are the roles?

Luke: 17:57

Yeah, so essentially, it's an on ramp into the industry. So you need somewhere that you can put some feared concert currency and purchase some other form of asset and that has to be offered by an exchange. So what we're seeing now, though, as well is, so we have decentralized exchanges, where you can swap between different currencies, you know, and that isn't controlled by a central entity. And something else is that one of the most popular wallets has gotten its own on ramp now as well. So the role of these exchanges is diminishing, I would say, as the industry evolves, but that doesn't mean that they're not relevant or anything. Right. Yeah.

Khush: 18:35

Interesting. Okay. So that's the difference, for example, between coin base and uni swap sort of thing. Like one Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Luke: 18:42

So one of them is a company, and one of them is controlled in a distributed way where people vote on the direction of what they're going to do. Yeah.

Khush: 18:52

And then you mentioned the challenges, the security and people's tolerance to risk when it comes to cryptocurrency, literally just partaking in crypto by holding any, what are some of the challenges there?

Luke: 19:04

Yeah, so I mean, there's plenty of challenges in terms of cryptocurrencies in general, one issues is somewhat well known within the industry, which is called the trilemma. Yeah, which is that you have three main concerns, which is security, scalability, and decentralization. And it's very difficult to get all three. And so most of the time, you'll sacrifice on one in an effort to get it later. So what often happens is they'll sacrifice on decentralization, for example, and go with security. So a very secure system and scalable in other words, lots of users, and then they'll try and push towards splitting up who controls all of the, you know, the system nodes as time goes on. But there's Yeah, it's quite a difficult problem to solve. There's some projects that claim to have solved it. And there's one that came out of MIT by a professor called Sylvia McCauley. It's called our grant. And they they believe that they solve the issue because they have all three of those issues solved. But yeah, essentially, there's a lot of different things to consider. And it's very hard to get all of them correct.

Khush: 20:12

So just so your listeners get a better context, would you say which of the three if in any way r is, for example, Bitcoin and any fear of missing? So like which of the three of the trilemma?

Luke: 20:25

Yeah, that's really good question. So. So for Bitcoin, for example, it sits with high security and high decentralization and very low scalability. In other words, you can't have a lot of users with a lot of throughput. So it's quite slow. But that doesn't mean that it's not safe. And it's not controlled by a single entity. And then if you look at a theory, and it's, it's moved more into, so it was it was similar, but now it's been increasing its scalability slowly through a bunch of improvements that it's been doing over the years. Yeah,

Khush: 20:56

I think of her little bit about those different phases. I think there's a particular term for it, but yeah, all right. Well, then a couple of things that like when you say Bitcoin, energy consumption comes up. And regulatory hurdles is always like a is it really toughing? You know, it's been it grapples, with that grapples with governments and central authorities. So how is it crypto addressing some of that sort of stuff like energy consumption, regulatory.

Luke: 21:24

So I think energy consumption is a pretty easy one. That used to be a concern, and I don't really think it is anymore. Because everyone is essentially, I would say most of the industry has decided that proof of steak is more optimal. It's it's been around long enough that it works. And it doesn't use anywhere near the amount of electricity, talking like a fraction of a percent. And it does the same things. And so the only one that's still using it is Bitcoin really, I mean, that's not true. There are the ones that use it, but it's the main, big contributor. So I think that that's a lot less of a concern. In terms of regulatory hurdles, I think that's something that's going to really come out in the next few years. Because I mean, a and Zed for example. They are, they're using multiple cryptocurrency projects to try and do digital payments and make things much faster and more efficient. So you see bank adoption. I think it's a it's a bit of a tick. But obviously, there's the government concern of we don't want to lose, you know, the the ability to print money the same way. So I think there's, there's fair concern from governments. Yeah, but we'll see. We'll see what happens with that in the future, I think. Yeah.

Khush: 22:36

Okay. You mentioned tokenization. At one point, is that, is that relevant at all to that question? Sorry.

Luke: 22:43

Yeah, so I think, I mean, the largest hedge fund in the world Black Rock. The manager there, Larry Fink, he believes that tokenization is the future of financial industries. And essentially, what that means is, it's it's just far more efficient. It's the idea that you can tokenize things and represent them in a fractionalized way is far more efficient than the the legacy financial systems that we have. And I think that that is a general consensus that, you know, like technology, revolutionize industries, and this is an example of that. Yeah,

Khush: 23:15

awesome. Well, I'm keen. And I think that's in a couple questions time. I'm gonna ask you where to from here. Yeah. But before we go, can you give us some examples of real world use cases of blockchain technology? So you know, again, cryptocurrency might get a bad name, you know, we talked about it a little bit in episode two, like, you know, the she knows Doge Doge coins download? And people like, what, what the hell is going on there? But you know, there is real blockchain being used in real world applications very far outside of fintech. Can you give some examples of that? Yeah,

Luke: 23:50

so I think I mean, I just mentioned the asset tokenization. It's called R WA, which is real world assets, you know, tokenized, I think that that is definitely going to be a future thing. And we see that a little bit with representation of real estate, for example, where you can have fractionalized ownership. And, you know, that's, I think, a very good example of outside of the financial industry, there's obviously international payments, which would be significantly faster and more efficient, which is what the SWIFT network have been testing recently. There's the representation of carbon credits and traceability of those true, you know, you have supply chain, where you can trace back to, you know, where a product came from, even down to it's, it's, uh, you know, it's called materials. And I think one other really interesting one is advertisement. So there's something called bat which is a basic attention token. And essentially, it's, if you were to get paid to look at advertising, and you could also spend it to not look at advertising. So it's, I guess it's like a tokenization of your time almost. Yeah. In terms of Yeah, scrolling the internet. Ah,

Khush: 24:55

interesting. So everything just it's more traceable. And I think it was really interest You mentioned Yeah, both supply chains and carbon credits, for example, you know, the new climate reporting and all that sort of stuff that comes through. And even when you think about scope, one, two and three emissions, you know if that can all be tracked, like if a raw material product can be tracked all the way to the finalized the end sold product and its uses, then, yeah, there's way more clarity on where that stuff's originating from. So yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't actually thought about the possibility of that. So.

Luke: 25:27

Yeah.

Khush: 25:29

All right. Well, now I suppose the bit that maybe everyone's waiting for, where do you see the future? What future trends and developments do you see in this blockchain and crypto space? What's coming?

Luke: 25:40

Yeah, so I think, I definitely think the real world asset tokenization is going to be huge. And you know, that's a major financial industry is really looking at that. So I think that's definitely has a bright future. I think the other one, I think it was 2020, there was something that they called defi summer, which refers to decentralized finance. And that that's things like a borrower and a lender protocol. So it's, I mean, there's lots of examples of a but but I like to think of it as you're trying to remove the middleman. So I need to borrow money from a bank. You know, there's peer to peer lending that exists now that this is kind of a more secure, and more traceable version of that. And there's, there's a lot of other financial mechanisms that you can do in defi. And I think that that will definitely come back as well. Yeah.

Khush: 26:24

Okay. Very interesting. And then, I mean, I suppose like, is there any new like technologies that we haven't really like? We're not really seeing in the general pool. That's, that's out there.

Luke: 26:36

Yeah, I think one of the big emerging texts is something called zero knowledge proofs, which we don't need to get into the the complicated maths around it, but it sounds hectic. But from that there's something called Z k Roelofs. And essentially, it's, it's to really increase that scalability part of the trial and that we talked about before. So it you can onboard an enormous amount of users. And I think it'll also potentially change the way that we do a lot of things in the future in terms of you know, it potentially even using Blockchain to log in to things like Login to your Facebook, for example, with with Blockchain. So I think that it might really change up the, I guess, proof of humanity, you know, proving that you are who you are. I think that that could be really influenced by it. Yeah,

Khush: 27:21

very interesting. Like, I think, even just thinking about it, like you and I share a drive account for this podcast. And every time you log in, I get an email every time I log in, you get an email, like if there was an easy way to track and just ensure that was just you and I accessing it. Yeah, that would make a make it a hell of a lot easier. shared drive for organizations and stuff, like to make sure your data is not getting leaked and stuff. Awesome. Well, I'm gonna ask you two final questions. And I think I will start with, you know, thinking about the future and, and crypto in the industry and stuff like that. If I'm being honest, I'm super stoked to be doing this episode. But it's definitely in the time that I think that not I'm not hearing that many people, like even my friends out there talking about crypto. You know, I mean, like in 2017, I definitely bought into the hype, I'm not gonna lie. In 2001. It was it was popping off. It seems like realistically, there's more real, real life use cases now. And we're hitting some of those trial level points. We're hitting scalability, but people aren't really talking about it. So where do you see the industry isn't alive? And well? Is it really dealing with some struggles? What's the go? Yeah,

Luke: 28:31

so I mean, within the industry, something that they've kind of coined is that bear markets are for building because that's when the most work gets done, because during bull markets, there's, there's so much fun, there's so much just like, so much unnecessary attention, and that's when everyone hears about it. That's, that's your 2070s. You know, that's when everyone starts jumping in. And I also think that's the highest risk, because that's when no one knows really what they're doing. They're just jumping in. But it's actually when no one's talking about it is probably that's that's the best time in my opinion.

Khush: 29:04

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Cool. That answers also. My, what I'm curious about this week, if nobody's talking about it, it's a good thing. Yeah. Let it be sure. No, fair enough. And then, you know, back to the blockchain, 101 and crypto 101. You know, for somebody completely new to blockchain and crypto, what, where would you recommend getting started be on this podcast?

Luke: 29:26

Yeah. So I think there's definitely a perception of risk around it. And so I think what you should do is get involved with a small amount, something that you're, you're happy to lose. And like you've said previously, your tuition fees, essentially, you know, yeah, I think start with the foundation. So if you're interested, you can read the Bitcoin white paper, if you're not interested, don't read it, because you're not interested. And maybe look at a YouTube video or something explaining the data structure with some, you know, maybe some animations so they can maybe explain it a bit better than what I've been able to over an audio medium. But then yeah, I would say try and figure some stuff out, you know, throw a small amount of money at Yeah, it just into the space and see what sticks, I guess. And what I mean by that is do it from an educational perspective first, I think is the most important thing.

Khush: 30:14

I think the other thing that I I took away from maybe your last podcast is like, you know, something's not worth your time until it's proved it is so, you know, keep your eyes and ears open. Well, that's what I'm going to do. But I keep my eyes and ears open to see, you know, is blockchain is being used in real life cases. Like I know, the ASX was trialing using Blockchain for a little bit. The banks are, you know, there's there's those stable coins and then digital currencies, even for fiat currency sort of things. And there is real world use cases, you know, if you're, if theorems popping up in a few different places. So I think that's, that's where I'm going to start and just trying to see where utility is, and then using that to get deeper into it, because I definitely learned from experience so yeah, yeah. Awesome, man. That was That was great. Thank you for letting us pick your brain. I probably had a couple silly questions in there as well. But now it's good. It's very good. I appreciate it. Yeah, that's probably all we have time for for today. So thanks for listening. Find us at QRC classes.com. And curiosity classes on Instagram are an all major streaming services so you can listen how you like. Now before I go if you got anything out of this episode, learned anything about crypto and you know somebody that would love to please share with them. Your recommendation is definitely worth a lot. But other than that, thanks, Loki. I'll catch you on the next episode.

Luke: 31:30

Thank you