Luke: 0:10

Welcome to the curiosity crisis, which challenge ourselves to explore the world of business, tech investing and science, get curious and be part of our journey, as we discussed challenge online.

Khush: 0:21

So today we're learning how to be a better thinker. We're going through some mental models. So mental models are frameworks or structures that help us understand, analyze and navigate the world around us. They are essentially cognitive tools that simplify complex situations, allowing us to make better decisions, solve problems, and interpret information more effectively. So I think everyone wants to do that. We're gonna go through a range of mental models that Luke has researched, pretty in depth, understand the theory and context around them, and then how we can implement them importantly, into our day to day life. Yeah. So

Luke: 0:54

if we look back at one of the previous episodes, I brought it up in a what's been keeping you curious. There's a book called The Great mental models, and it's written by Farnam Street. And this there's three volumes, this one is the general thinking concepts. And there's a couple of others, but this one focuses on Yeah, these these mental models that you can apply to kind of Everyday Things. And after having read the book, I was thinking, You know what, this would be a fantastic thing to share with everyone, because we can all benefit from being better thinkers. So I thought, yeah, let's let's crack into it. So I've researched and kind of condensed the notes. So you can thank me for saving you 200 pages. But speaking of what's been keeping you curious Kush, what has been keeping you curious? May

Khush: 1:40

1 of all I love that it's turned into an episode. And I think you know, the whole premise around curiosity and crisis and learning how to think better understand the world. Perfect. What has been keeping me curious, is read sapiens. the book by I think you've all know Harare. Yeah, I don't know if I've said that wrong. But I will give give it by a friend and probably like a quarter to a third of the way through. It's very, very interesting. I wouldn't say normally I'm a history buff, but it's basically the history of, of humankind, our evolution. So it is incredibly interesting. I'm learning a lot of facts that I didn't know that, you know, that are expansion, the cognitive revolution, the agricultural revolution, and just how things have started to change. And I'm finding it pretty fascinating. Sometimes I have to go back and reread little parts. But no, it's really good cannot wait to get to towards the end and just understand how we as a race have have evolved,

Luke: 2:34

I have actually been recommended the same book as well, actually. It's, it's on my list. I think I'll get there eventually. But I have a long list. So

Khush: 2:45

I'll give you the I'll give you the condensed version, and then you can see whether you want to jump into Yes, that'd be very beneficial effects. What's what's been keeping you curious, man?

Luke: 2:53

Well, some listeners might know that I have run a couple of marathons. And I've done all my marathon training and my two marathons with an analog watch. It's an automatic watch. It has nothing to do with running at all. And I've decided to pull the trigger on a running watch on a Garmin how. And the reason is, it's become rather difficult to train without knowing my pace. And I've been able to kind of just wing it. But if I want to get some reasonable times, I mean, my times haven't been terrible, but they've been very amateur. So I think it's it's time that I have to step up my my gear a little bit. But I intentionally got one that doesn't give me extra analytics or extra battery. I don't want to wear it to bed. I don't want to have notifications. I don't want to pay with it. I want to do anything. I only want to wear it for running. So that's kind of been my thing. I've always wanted a dumb watch. And I had one and I have one and I still wear it. And I don't want a smartwatch, but I do want a running watch. So there you go. That's awesome.

Khush: 3:52

I have a similar one. Mine's pretty cheap Garmin, very basic, just for running times heart rate. And then occasionally I wear it for sleep just to monitor my SPO to see my breathing. But otherwise, it's dumb. I don't I don't have notifications. Yeah. Hey, weather. Yeah, that sort of stuff. So maybe I'm noticing a quick theme. And next one, I'm going to circle back to what you said. Last one or the episode before which was on supplementation. Oh, yeah. Starting supplementation getting a watch. You're putting your interior to

Luke: 4:21

hell I have been. Well, I'll have to update you on the supplement soon. I need a few more weeks, I think. Yeah. I keep my thesis on it. But getting into my thesis, do you want to introduce the first mental model?

Khush: 4:35

So the first one is the map is not the territory? Yeah, I think can you explain

Luke: 4:41

this one might be one of the harder ones to identify just from the name. The map is not the territory is not going to be a familiar concept to many people. But essentially, when you think about a map, it's a structure that's similar or dissimilar to a structure of a territory. So if you look at like the London Underground map, for example, It's really useful to travelers, but it's not actually similar to how the London Underground is set up at all the map that you read is not at all how the how the trains are. But that's intentional, right. So train drivers don't use that map, they're going to use something that's more accurate. And so if you think about the ideal map, that would essentially contained a map of the map, and then that would contain the map of the map, and it will keep going infinitely. And the reason is for that is you would want a Map to navigate the most detail. And so you would need something to explain that. And then you would need something to explain that, and so on, and so forth, all the way down. And so we call this characteristic, self reflectiveness. So if you imagine using an overlay, like a complicated guide to Paris, so on a trip to Paris, you would have, you'd purchase a book, and it'd be the guide to Paris, and then you'd need the guide to the guide of Paris, and so on and so forth. And essentially, it's just the idea that just because you have a map of something does not mean that it is the same as the territory, you know, it's not the same thing, it is a representation of it, and therefore, you are missing some form of detail. And I think this applies to lots of things. But I think the way that we navigate complexity is, it's always going to be through some abstraction, like you have something complex. And so you try and simplify it into, you know, in this scenario, a map. And that map is not the perfect representation. So it's a dangerous thing to assume that it is or to get in the habit of thinking that it is. And I think lots of businesses actually do this, where they might have something that represents something else. So you might be trying to grow your customers, and you have some metrics that represent customer growth, but they actually represent the metric, the metric is the metric. And it doesn't necessarily mean that gives you it might be an indication, but it isn't the core thing that you're looking at. And so because of that one level of obstruction, if you're not always going back to the root, cause you're not actually going to find what you're trying to look for. And I hope that makes sense.

Khush: 7:03

It does make sense. And I'm just, I think two things that stuck out to me. One, I think sometimes the the abstractions, and the map, which is not the territory is a really good thing. Like sometimes you're giving the people or whoever needs to use it, the right and the relevant amount of information. Yes, everyone, you know, the world can be infinitely complex. But um, we need it to bring back to things that are tangible to us. And, for example, the London map, the London subway, I don't need to know, a detailed map of London to get to know which trains need to get to exactly from Piccadilly to

Luke: 7:40

Yes, Trafalgar. So and that's the thing, whereas in that scenario, it's actually more useful for you as the end user. But in certain circumstances, it can be less useful. And so it's important to recognize it's a map, and it is a representation. And that means that it'd be more useful or less useful, or whatever that is, but it that's really important to know, yeah, it is not the territory. And I think it actually applies to lots of things. Well,

Khush: 8:06

and just on the flip side of backyard, there is no like, you know, in terms of business, if you're trying to understand customer perception of your company, you could use the metric of like, how many five star reviews, or how many mentions you're getting on Instagram or something. But maybe that's only giving you the small percentage of people that actually do review things commonly on Google. And they do it as part of a habit Exactly. Which is not the population or, you know, those people that have Instagram. But if your customer base is actually mainly, for example, elderly people, or people who don't use technology or social media, what are you missing? But then because that is the representation, it gets taken as gospel, and you probably miss a lot of the picture. So there's a lot of thinking, dude, this is huge. This is very, very exciting. Yeah, I'm going to challenge you a little bit on time, I think and just like keep pushing through them. So is there anything you want to add more to the map? No,

Luke: 8:59

not really. I think that's pretty much it. And we have a lot of these mental models to get through. So let's move on to another one.

Khush: 9:06

Let's keep punching it. Next one, I think I'll know a little bit about hopefully circle of competence. Can you take us through that? Yeah.

Luke: 9:13

So I think maybe the last one was a bit more applicable to business. But this one, I think, is really good for the individual. So the circle of competence. And I'd like to quote Thomas Watson, who is a businessman from art, and became the IBM CEO. And he said, I'm no genius. I'm smart in spots, but I stay around those spots. And I think it's a fantastic way of understanding your circle of competence. And that is that, you know, probably the most important thing about it is that we need to be able to operate outside of them. So, you know, a circle of competence is the thing that you understand and you're an expert in. And that can be all types of things. You might have multiple circles of competence. But often, the biggest thing is when we understand that we're outside, we feel like we're Out of our depth. You know, imposter syndrome is very common in the workplace. So how do you actually deal with being outside and I think this mental model is really important is thinking of it as a circle of competence, recognizing that you might be outside it. So what am I going to do about it? So there's a few things. I think that this, this first one is probably the most useful, honestly. And that is learn at least the basics of the realms you're operating in, while acknowledging that you're a stranger, not a lifer. And what that means is, you know that you're not an expert, but you can understand the basics of something. And that might be the basic, you know, the absolute basics, but everything has basics, it doesn't matter how complicated something is, you know, theoretical physics still has, you know, it still has basic stuff that you can learn. So I think that's really important. The next thing is to talk to someone whose circle of competence is in the area, that that you're looking at that their circle of competence is really strong, because you can always leverage expertise, you don't have to be an expert in everything. And that's totally fine. And I think the last one is use a broad understanding of basic mental models of the world, to augment your limited understanding of the field, in which you're a stranger. And so you recognize that you're a stranger in a field that your circle of competence isn't really here, you're outside of it. And that's totally fine. But you can use other mental models to navigate through this because you're, you're recognizing that, look, I don't I don't really know what's going on here. So I think it's really useful, like,

Khush: 11:33

so you need a different way to think about them to like, give yourself an anecdote, a metaphor or something. Yeah, sort of brings it back to brings it back to home. Exactly. Yeah, no, I absolutely love that. And I think one of the biggest things to, to maybe try and make make use of this is when you're talking to people that have the circle of competence, that you want to explore a little bit more in is just, I suppose learning how to ask even even the dumb questions, but like, you know, those fundamental basic, basic building blocks of that next circle of competence, learning how to ask those questions and getting people that are willing to share, first of all, that they should don't back to front. And also people are always willing to share something that they love or passionate about. So yeah, just I think that's, that's a huge one for me. And I think it's interesting, because like, you talk about investing, like you stay in your circle of competence, but sometimes, even what you're investing in will have parts that you don't understand. So Oh, totally. Shall we do? Yeah. All right. Another one that sort of makes a bit of sense, having studied science, first principles thinking,

Luke: 12:39

Yeah, I think this is a great one. I think this is probably the stereotype. If you think of a mental model, it's probably first principles thinking. So essentially, it's reverse engineering or boiling things down to its to its constants, to its things that are absolute fact. So again, I'm going to quote someone here, which is Richard Feynman, who is a US theoretical physicist, and he said, I don't know what's the matter with people that don't learn by understanding, they learn, by some other way, by rote or something, their knowledge is so fragile. And what he's referring to here is it's just people memorizing things from a textbook, but not really understanding things, not really thinking things through down to their their core. And so their knowledge as he calls it fragile is because they're just either explaining someone else's opinion, or they're just remembering something that was one set, and they don't actually have, you know, core thoughts on it. I think this is a really, it's become a quite a common mental model as well, because of Elon Musk was the way that he dealt with vertical integration with Tesla, which was, you know, how can we get an Eevee? Cheaper? Let's get things down to okay, what are the what are the things that we have to do here? We need commodities, we need materials. Let's try and get that cheaper. And he's done the same as SpaceX. Okay, we need to get these cheaper, let's manufacture them in the house, rather than paying for these, you know, our rockets directly. So I think the easiest way of getting here is is asking the five why's, so you ask why five times, and you'll definitely dig down to the crux of the issue. But another really interesting one is Socratic questioning, which is clarifying your thinking. So like, where did the origins of this come from? Then challenge your assumptions? Because you're always going to have assumptions about things. And you don't say, okay, are these fair assumptions? Is there a way that I can avoid these? Look for evidence in all of these areas? That's the next step. Consider alternatives. Maybe ask someone else. And the last one is question, the original question. Are you even asking the right question? Yeah, I think one of the real world examples that I've had with this was probably during COVID, where all the Australian banks collapsed in value. And I was saying, you know, I think this is actually a fantastic buying opportunity. Because if the Australian banks fall, we have something. There's a bigger problem here. So if you boil it down to like an Australian economy, it's actually a really great buying opportunity. Even though it might seem risky or be perceived as risky by the market

Khush: 15:04

it like so you're looking pretty much under under the thing on the server that's happening that has, you know, big, big ramifications, but you're thinking, what are the other ramifications? What are the like the the alternatives if this doesn't self correct? Yeah, like, then then things gonna start really, really, really breaking down. Yeah. So yeah, interesting that one, I don't know if I really have too much more to pick your brain about, I think you've just got to, at its core first principles thinking is going down to the base level of something that you can't challenge and building it back up from there. So now huge. Alright, the next one, I know I do this a lot thought experiments. Yeah,

Luke: 15:43

I mean, this one's pretty self explanatory. You know, you think about an experiment and you basically play it out in your head, there was there's a great quote, which it's from anonymous, I don't actually know who it's from. But it's creativity is intelligence, having fun. So this book does a great job, especially this one of giving a really good step by step instructions here. I think that it's very common for for scientists, anyone who studied any form of STEM to know what thought experiments are, they're, they're quite common. And philosophy, actually, we always think of Einstein's thought experiments when it comes to relativity. For example, if that means nothing to you, that's fine. Because we'll get into this, which is that it's a device of imagination. So it's used to investigate the nature of things. But it's more than just daydreaming because you're trying to achieve something at the end of the day. So step one is ask a question, conduct some background research. And this is important, you need to conduct background research, because you need to understand how things can or will play out. Now, you don't have to, you know, you don't have to know everything, that's totally fine. We can deal with unknowns in other ways. But it's important that you have research something. So then construct your hypothesis, and test it with a thought experiment. So see how it would play out, and then analyze the outcomes and draw the conclusions. Does it make sense the way that it would play out? If not, maybe you need to go back to your research or, or whatever it is. So then you compare your hypothesis and adjusted accordingly. Maybe it was wrong, maybe it was right, maybe something doesn't seem correct. And then ask a new question. And you can repeat the process and do multiple thought experiments. And hopefully, by the end, you at least have more clarity than you did to begin with.

Khush: 17:19

So how long would that take generally, like a typical example?

Luke: 17:22

I mean, I think it really depends on what it is. But maybe a more tangible example would be like something in the workplace, you could do a thought experiment of like, Hey, there's this, you know, this process that needs to be better. And so you think, Okay, well, let's conduct this experiment. Like, could it be fixed? Okay, it could be fixed this way. You know, what would happen if I fixed it this way? And you could play things out. And you might say, well, the business wouldn't actually care, or it doesn't move the needle enough for them. There could be all kinds of things, and I think it could really help with, yeah, I think lots of things within your workplace or personally,

Khush: 17:58

I think literally day to day, people do this all the time, but they totally realize it. So like, when you're even planning, like, an afternoon and figuring out the logistics, should I get the train show drive? Yeah, absolutely. To get there. If I go to this, like, if I book in this am I going to have time, I'm going to be able to see that person will at work in the group that I'm with. Yeah, and you're just going through that, and everyone does it. But it's just like when you actually, if you've probably just built it out a little bit more than it could be used really effectively, that something most people are probably really good at, just, you know, effectively, unconsciously. So I think

Luke: 18:33

that's the whole thing is that everyone uses mental models, everyone does it, whether it's conscious or subconscious. But the advantage of of being more conscious is that most of us have a bias towards one of them. Where, you know, we might default to using, you know, a certain mental model, whether that's, you know, thought experiments, or whatever it is. And so if you're more conscious about it, you're more likely to be able to use multiple, and then get a better conclusion at the end. True,

Khush: 19:01

true, true. So you can draw on the different ways to think about something, no problem. Like, I'm loving it. And I think you've convinced me to take this, just as on like, at this level, I think I might have to delve into the book and read everything that is there is to learn because I think it would help in work in life and investing in in just just thinking about things. So yeah, totally loving it. So to pass, to go back to first principles thinking, now we're on second order thinking

Luke: 19:34

they are because essentially, it's the next step. First Principles thinking might be, I think about, you know, it's really easy for us to anticipate the next thing that will happen. So if I say something to you, what would be your response, I can probably anticipate your initial response quite easily. Yeah. But what we really do struggle to do is anticipating multiple different outcomes and then anticipating the next outcomes after those as well. And I think every A good way of thinking about it is chess. So in the beginning of chess, everyone has the same pieces, the pieces are in the same positions, and we're playing on the same board right? At the beginning, you make a move coach, and I anticipate your move, or I make a move myself. And then I think, what are the most likely moves that you would make, and it's quite easy. And you can you can memorize those as well, you don't even have to think about them. But what does get really hard is later in the game, when everything all the pieces start to move out, and the possible options start to really increase. And yeah, I've seen some research on the conservative lower bound for the game tree of complexity of chess. And it's 10, to the 120. And to put that in context, that is More atoms than there are in the entire universe. So the possibilities of chess are essentially endless. And so

Khush: 20:52

I think that's the billions and trillions and exactly numbers

Luke: 20:55

that we don't even have. So yeah, I think it's, yeah, it's one of those things where it's, it's actually really hard to just add that additional layer of thinking, but it is something that you can practice, and people can get really good at second order thinking and I think it's actually profoundly beneficial for making decisions. Do you think

Khush: 21:14

like, what sort of sort of tool like I'm was bringing spring into my life as I use for working on things like flowcharts? A little bit, so obviously, you can, you can be like, alright, well, this could be the range of responses, but then the tree as it goes out and expands out like, you could, you could do that to visualize it is any other tools that would help a second order thing,

Luke: 21:35

I think that is a fantastic way of doing it. And I think the big thing is to focus on the most probable options, because there's always going to be your edge cases. And if you try and cover all of your cases, there's way too much to try and think about. But if you think about a handful of the most probable outcomes, and then try and think about a handful of the most probable outcomes for each of those, it's still manageable. You might be, you know, five outcomes, and then five outcomes for those five outcomes. And it's still within reason to think about, you know, 25 outcomes, that's fine. So, I think it especially with deep thinking, you know, I think it's really achievable. But it's something you have to practice, because it's some somewhat similar to thought experiments, but you're not testing a hypothesis, you're, you're looking at possible possible outcomes.

Khush: 22:24

And, you know, I think that one of the benefits would be to help get over your cognitive bias where you, you always go to something that you sort of relate to, or you believe in or something like that. So then when you actually draw it out, then you're like, for example, when we're doing investment cases, we like setting if we like company will have like a three page long bookcase, and then like a couple of things on the risks, but you did it like this map, then you can see like, okay, there is all of these things, but these are the likely outcomes because of XY and Z. Yeah, totally.

Luke: 22:56

Yeah, I think a really good tip for this is to ask yourself, what happens next. So if something happens, what happens next, and then what happens next, and so you can try and think of it that way. I'll give one quick example for this, which is that there was a state in the USA that tried to do a gun cash back program, so you would give them a gun, they would pay you, the government would pay you a certain amount of money for the gun after assessing it, and then they would destroy the weapons to try and get some some guns off the market. And what happened was plenty of people were giving guns and the government was paying for them and they were destroying them. And that so the, the program was working as intended, but because they wanted to be inclusive on all the types of guns, you know, they didn't, they just wanted everything, they just they just basically one of the things off off the market so that they would say yes to everything. It meant that people 3d printed guns were also included. And the thought process here was you know, it was well intentioned, but it meant that plenty of brand new 3d guns that may not have even been working were being printed and then sold essentially. So you print a 3d gun for $1 and then sell it to the government for $50 and it gets destroyed even though it's never a problem. And so I think the main thing to get out of this one is what seems like a good outcome if you keep taking the next steps maybe it isn't. And so in this scenario, for example, if they've not had 3d guns included a lot of money that had been essentially wasted on them could have been used to buy back other guns. So yeah, you know, the net result is less guns that they were trying to remove off the market actually got removed. So I think I think that's one of the big takeaways is the initial step might seem negative, but then the next further steps can be really positive. So

Khush: 24:38

yeah, okay. Okay. So that's, that's a cool way to think about it and like it's just thinking about ramifications and and follow on flow and consequences flow and effects. I think there's there's a huge use case for a lot of those about, you know, environmentally with net zero and like how implementing one solution seems like the right thing now but then for example, what happens when that tends to waste in 20 years? And then, you know, how does that does that just get dumped with traditional processes that are there? Awesome. So looky, I'm gonna give you a challenge, we're going to do a bit of a fast fire round, and then the next few mental models to wrap it up perfect probabilistic thinking, yes.

Luke: 25:18

So the theory of probability is the only mathematical tool available to help map the unknown and uncontrollable. So essentially, it's just estimating things using tools of math and logic. So everyone understands that it's very simple. Probability is everywhere. Am I going to get hit by lightning today? Am I going to win the lottery, these are all probabilities. And a quick note for this, I think that a good investing is the balance between risk that you take on and the probability of making a profit. So for example, venture capital is 10. Startups hoping, giving $1 million each and hoping that one will be 100 million, so they get their 10x, or a bank might be millions of people with small loans, but they only get a small amount back from all Yeah, so I think, you know, the one of the big things to thrive in an unpredictable world, when we are, we have so much probability all around us is to predict or prepare. So if you're an expert in the field, you should aim for prediction, because that's what you're you're capable of. Otherwise, you should prepare. I think that's, that's a really important thing. And yeah, just the exposure to probability and trying to think about it, I think really helps us. There's

Khush: 26:32

so many interlinks between all of them. But in in its interest in keeping moving, what is inversion? Yeah,

Luke: 26:39

so the inversion, the test of first rate, intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless, you'd be determined to make them otherwise. So that's a quote from Scott Fitzgerald. I think that basically start by assuming that what you're trying to prove is either true or false, and then show that show, what else would have to be true after you, you make that assumption. So inversion is flipping the ideas on their head. And sometimes approaching something from the goal state is actually much easier. So instead of aiming directly for the goal, think deeply about what we try and to avoid. And then what other options are leftover. And often, it makes the part for much clearer.

Khush: 27:29

That happens so much like you, you're like, Alright, what do I want? And I was like, What do I not want? Because we're obviously better at making a decision when there's less inputs as choices that like, just like cuts down the range of possibilities. And I'm pretty sure that that first bit you said about starting assuming something's true or false, and then proving it otherwise, that's the whole basis of a whole justice system.

Luke: 27:52

Yes. Well, yeah.

Khush: 27:54

All righty. All comes Raisa.

Luke: 27:56

So I'll comes Raisa. Anyone can make this simple, complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple. That was Charles. That's a great one. So essentially, simple explanations are more likely to be true than complicated explanations. So principle of logic to help it work, investing life, I think it's just a fantastic principle. And I think a really good way of thinking about it is, the simpler an explanation is, the simpler it should be to disprove. And therefore because there's less elements, making up if that does stand or remains to be standing, it probably is true. It has less surface area less vector to be exposed. I think that's, that's, I think it's a really good way of thinking about it. And it's not always true. Not all its simplicity isn't isn't always the key. But I think it's a really good way of thinking about things. Yeah,

Khush: 28:48

I think I've definitely had a conversation about this with another friend. And she said that, I think the most like the most commonly believed things in the world are actually a really well formed ideas because they've been able to be made simple. And can grab onto it get it can be tangible to them. But if it's too complex, people will just shut off or think there's too many things that are a variables and whatnot. So absolutely, that that's actually an awesome one, too. This is so so interesting. The last one, we've got hands raised, yeah, handle

Luke: 29:20

hands raised. I think this this one's a little bit more for the person or more for life. I think it's a bit of fun. And that is the it states do not attribute malice to that, which is more easily explained by stupidity. And essentially, you know, we're all human, we all make mistakes. We all have the pitfalls of laziness or bad thinking or bad incentives. So you know, what is more likely? And I think this is a great takeaway, and that it's just much easier way to live in it's a much nicer way to live assuming the best in people. I think it makes life way better. But also it actually is really good because most of the time it's true. When when you think the worst posting something. And then really it's like, actually, their person had a terrible day. And it was a mistake that they forgot. Yeah, it's not because they don't like you because you didn't do something or, you know what, however deep you start to think about that, I think. Yeah, I think it's, it's really good. And I'll just quickly say that I think roommates or work colleagues, I think these are the two that just exemplary in this, and that you should always assume the best and then, and I think it also helps people assume the best view. So I think that's it.

Khush: 30:27

Yeah. 100% Rather, you can actually view if that was the norm in the world. And I hope one day is, then I feel people will have much less stress, because then they wouldn't be thinking of the consequences of if they forget something. And then they have to like stress about something that they might have missed, and it has something might be perceived. It's just like you take things on service level and assume the best absolutely do. That's it. That's a very, very nice, nice thing to end on.

Luke: 30:53

Yeah, I think so.

Khush: 30:55

Is there any any key takeaway or there's too many here? I think that's it. You know, fair enough. My key takeaway is I've got read that book. It sounds so interesting, and I think I'd absolutely love it. I think it would be useful.

Luke: 31:08

I highly recommend it.

Khush: 31:10

Was it easy to read? Oh, is it brutal?

Luke: 31:12

No, it's it's really good. It's a really interesting read. And it's really easy to read. Yeah.

Khush: 31:17

I'm sold. Anyway, that's all we have time for today. So thanks heaps for sharing that with us lucky. The so thank you for listening, find us accuracy crisis.com and curiosity crisis on Instagram. We're on all the streaming services so you can listen how you like, if you got anything out of this episode or you have any thoughts on it, get in touch. But before you do that, please give us a five star review on Spotify. It makes all the difference being found by the next person. So thank you and catch you in the next episode.